PowerPopSquare: Rooney - Kids After Sunset (The Lost Album): Interview with Taylor Locke & Ned Brower (Bandmates from Rooney)

Bandmates Taylor Locke and Ned Brower took the time to talk about a special chapter in the history of Rooney: the "lost" second album, Kids After Sunset! I reached out to both of them separately and asked if they could answer a few questions - check it out below.

Over the past 20 years, aplenty songs from this album surfaced online and were shared through blogs, fans, and social media. These were mostly demos or low-quality recordings, but in 2024, a seemingly final version of the album appeared on the internet!

Kids After Sunset - cover art concept

PPS: Around 2004, Rooney recorded a significant number of songs for their intended second album, Kids After Sunset - at least twenty-five tracks, as far as I know. The plan was for most of these songs to be included on the album. However, it is said that the record label rejected nearly all of them, claiming they didn’t like any of the tracks, and instructed the band to start from scratch with a completely new album. Is this accurate?

TL: This is almost entirely accurate, but with one remarkable exception. The record was rejected and re-recorded TWICE. There are essentially three "second Rooney" albums. Between the initial Tony Hoffer sessions, and the John Fields version that was released, there was an entire record made with another producer, named Howard Benson.

NB: In 2004 Rooney had been on tour for two years promoting our first full length album. We decided it was time to go into the studio to make a new record. We met with several producers including Jerry Harrison from Talking Heads and Robert DeLeo from Stone Temple Pilots. In the end, we decided to work with Tony Hoffer because we liked his work with the bands Phoenix, Supergrass, and Beck. He was an LA guy, but lots of the cool bands from the UK were starting to take an interest in his productions. We were also excited to work with Tony because he agreed to make our album on analog tape like bands used to do in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. We thought this sounded like a fun challenge and enjoyed the sonics on a lot of those old analog records. We were very honed at the time from months and months of playing together on the road and wanted to record our music in a natural way that would capture the sound and performance of the band.

The record label wasn’t thrilled with our decision because Tony didn’t have the big pop hits, they were hoping the band would deliver, but they let us go forth with our idea. Many of the songs such as Paralyzed were already written and shaped on the road. Some such as In My Pocket were written and recorded as demos at home by Robert (Schwartzman) with or without any combination of band guy. Others including Get Away seemed to fall out of the sky. I have no memory of Get Away until we recorded it together.

"Blueside" single - cover art

We recorded the Kids After Sunset album at the world-famous Sunset Sound Studios with Tony Hoffer producing and Todd Burch engineering. We were all set up in the room playing together and having loads of fun. No click tracks, no auto tuning. Just the 5 of us playing our music in very sparse arrangements with very little over dubbing. Robert wasn’t even playing much guitar on these sessions and as a result, some of these songs have Louie on an organ, Taylor on a guitar, and Matt and I on rhythm instruments. Very sparse approach, but as a result, you can really feel everyone’s musical contribution and personal style on this album. The record label personnel never stopped by the studio. We just ripped through song after song. An animal died in one of the walls of studio A and the smell was awful for a few days. Nonetheless, we just kept recording. In the end, we recorded about 14 songs. 11 or 12 for the album and a couple extras.

Here is where things took an unfortunate turn. Our label president who signed us was a man named Jordan Schur. Jordan had very different taste from us. He rose to power on the coat tails of Limp Biscuit and the Nu Metal movement of the late 90s/early 2000s. Jordan loved Rooney and was very enthusiastic, believing we could be the biggest band in the world. What Schur lacked was an understanding of what we were into artistically. He finally came to the studio, had a listen, and just didn’t feel it. He was confused by the sound of our new album which felt to him like a departure from our previous sound. It wasn’t that he said “I hate all of these songs,” I genuinely believe he just didn’t think we had anything that would fit into any particular radio format and elevate us to super star status, which was his ultimate goal as our record label president. In hindsight, I believe it was a combination of songs and sonic production. We turned in a quirky indie sounding record when he was waiting in a slick commercial album. The reaction was extremely depressing, and led to a disastrous two years or so where our live business, musical confidence, self-determination, and friendships all took a hit.

Rooney (Taylor Locke, Ned Brower, Robert Schwartzman, Louie Stephens, Brandon Schwartzel)

PPS: How did the band react to this affront, especially considering how much effort had gone into those sessions?

NB: It’s hard for me to remember how each person felt exactly. Initially we all were in a state of shock. We were excited about what we were doing, and we had so much momentum from the first record, we were feeling pretty unstoppable. We were cutting songs every day and getting the work done. We knew we were moving in a slightly different direction, but it felt natural to us. We were still very young and finding our voice. I don’t think we realized how different it sounded to an outsider who hadn’t been traveling with us for the past two years. We were playing these songs in sound checks and on stage. After the initial shock, I think we all went through the stages of grief, denial, anger, bargaining, and then acceptance.

Robert went back into writing mode and then we were completely disorganized and in a state of chaos. We were just throwing things at the wall as Robert was desperately trying to write a song that sounded like a “hit “. At that point, Tony Hoffer was removed from the project and dismissed altogether. The first instinct after the Tony debacle was to go back to our original producer Keith Forsey. We really enjoyed working with Keith, but had decided to move away from him to work with someone younger and “cooler.” I feel bad saying it, but that’s the truth. Because the label enjoyed our first record, they agreed to send us into a studio with Keith. We started working on a new batch of songs. At that point, we were all pretty distraught and things weren’t coming as easy as they were before. We were working too hard and not getting the good and easy results in the way we were used to. At that point, the label started paying closer attention, combing over every line, word, melody, and part of the song. They were never able to tell us exactly what they liked or didn’t like, but instead just kept telling us to “keep writing.”

Rooney

Things then began to spiral even more out of control, and the label started pushing us to work with people outside the band. Hard rock producers, outside songwriters etc. at one point, Schur had the idea to try an new drummer based on success he had had with his other signing, Puddle of Mudd. I was out of the band for a couple days when I was temporarily replaced, just a random idea from the label boss that affected me for years after. I won my seat back pretty quickly; we made an entire other batch of music with producer Howard Benson. Howard was a poor taste producer that was famous for cookie cutter hard rock albums by POD, Hoobastank, and other pop metal wrap groups we absolutely disdained. He was a bully, and there was very little creative input from the band during these sessions. He essentially told us “You’ll play this amp, through this microphone, and I’ll do it this way like I do all of my albums.” This experience was the polar opposite of the Tony Hoffer experience When we turned this record in, the label wasn’t particularly enthusiastic and Rooney as a band were spiritually broken.

TL: I think we probably moved from shock to acceptance. We were disappointed that the vision did not satisfy the label, but ultimately we were lucky to be given the opportunity to take another swing. And then another swing.

Calling the World - cover art

PPS: You mentioned that the tracks listed (see below) come from different sessions. Could you describe what Kids After Sunset might have turned into, based on these tracks?

TL: What you refer to as Kids After Sunset was never cemented as an official album title, but based on the track listing you provide, it appears to be the Tony Hoffer-produced sessions, and/or the demos leading up to those sessions.
We were attempting to plant a flag in the sand that would counterbalance the polish of our debut album, which after 2 years on the road, sounded too slick to us. This is a typical sophomore move by rock bands of that generation. After the blue album, Weezer returned with the much darker Pinkerton. Nirvana followed the radio-friendly Nevermind with In Utero, a much rougher album. We wanted to get a little closer to our live sound, and to the sound of bands we were inspired by.

NB: The Tony Hoffer album tentatively titled Kids After Sunset comprised of (with comments from Taylor included in brackets)…

Kids After Sunset (TL: here’s your “title” track, going for Billy Idol I think?)
Are You Through With Me
Get Away (later released on "Calling the World" - bonus track; TL: we did it with Hoffer,did we redo it with Fields or use the Hoffer version?)
Radio (TL: This one got a lot of sweat equity and yet never took flight)
The Juice (TL: one of the first ones we worked on in this period. Seemed like it would be around for awhile, and then it wasn’t)
My Sickness (TL: dark… dark…goose)
Enough Enough (TL: one of the ones from the Tony batch I think, somewhat of a Cobain-ish chorus; the other guys weren’t big Nirvana fans, so I would be the only one noticing that)
One Arm Man (TL: Ozzy meets Weird Al)
Sleep Song (later released on "Calling the World" - bonus track; TL: A moody thing with no chorus. We liked it but were shy about putting it in the live set.)
Something To Do (TL: Ned wrote some of the words. Cool singing in the outro. Never played it)
Jump In My Bed (later released on "Calling the World" - bonus track; TL: formerly “Jump In My Head”… I suggested the one word change that still couldn’t save it from the rubbish bin)
I Don’t Think So (Pin Me)
In My Pocket
Love Is Not A Game (TL: this illustrates how disjointed the major key and minor key songs were in this batch)
Paralyzed (later released on "Calling the World”; TL: redone with all three producers, played live a ton)
Tell Me Soon (later released on "Calling the World”; TL: three producers, two videos, not a hit - whoops)

It’s hard to say what they “could have become”. We were listening to a lot of glam like The Sweet, Slade, and even Black Sabbath at the time these songs were created so to me, this album feels like one part what we were doing before blending 60s, 70s and 80s pop rock into a 21st century indie band, but we cut in a 70s riff rock element. We’ll never know what could have happened because the album never came out.

These songs were never sequenced officially and ultimately, Sleep Song was in a film, In My Pocket, Get Away, Something To Do and Love Is Not A Game were released as b sides in various regions, and Paralyzed and Tell Me Soon we’re re-recorded for Calling The World.

Calling the World - alternative cover art

PPS: Correct me if I’m wrong, but the initial Kids After Sunset sessions were produced by Tony Hoffer, while the final Calling the World album was produced by John Fields?

NB: By the time we had completed all the Tony Hoffer sessions and the Keith Forsey demo sessions and the Howard Benson Sessions and one John Shanks session, we were essentially put in the major label trash bin. Robert had even tried to work with mega pop writers Max Martin, Desmond Child, and Kara Dio Guardi with nothing good to show for it. No one wanted to spend any more money and our band was dead in the water. It was at this point John Fields came into our life. John was a brilliant, young, weed smoking, enthusiastic producer from the Minneapolis rock scene who had risen to success for his production with Switchfoot. While we weren’t particular fans of Switchfoot, John Fields very much understood the kind of music we liked and what we were interested in making. John loved classic rock and pop as much as we did and he is a musical and technical genius. John agreed to do one song for free with us, feeling strongly he could make something great.

The first song we recorded with John was Believe in Me from the Calling the World album. It sounded so big and loud and sounded like our band, but also sounded catchy and hit like. We turned it into the record label and they immediately were thrilled. They loved the sound and we loved it as well. It sounded like Rooney, but it also sounded big, bombastic, and energetic in a way that we failed to capture on the Tony Hoffer record. John was able to wrangle the performances out of the band and infuse the recordings with a more dynamic sound. At that point, legendary producer and label head Jimmy Iovine, the president of Interscope records, green lit Calling the World.

We moved to a small home studio in the valley that used to be owned by Jeff Porcaro, the famous drummer from the band Toto. We finally felt like the old Rooney, working fast and furious doing a song a day without much thought. The entire band and was once again included and the label was off our back. Every song that we recorded was a winner. These sessions were released as Calling the World. A lot of the songs that we recorded between the first record and Calling the World were thrown into the trash, but a couple of the songs were ultimately recorded for Calling the World, including Paralyzed and Tell Me Soon. As a result, I don’t include those two on the Hoffer album.

TL: An entirely different album was made in between those two. A different studio, a different team, and largely a different set of songs. Our failed experiment with Hoffer cost us a lot of leverage. We now had to play ball.
John Fields was a fan of the first album, and thought we were stylistically aligned. He reached out directly to the band. He became a great mentor, big-brother, and friend. He was so refreshingly different that anyone we had worked with.
Seeing a band’s relationship with their label turn sour would be a red flag for most producers, but John had the self-confidence to overcome that. With John we spoke the same language, and we started nailing songs quickly.

PPS: Is there any chance that the final versions of the Kids After Sunset tracks will ever be officially released?

NB: I have no idea if or when that music will ever be released. For many years, we were led to believe that album was a piece of shit. Many of our cool, cosmopolitan friends in LA thought it was awesome, but the label made us feel like it was absolute garbage. For many years, I don’t think any of us listened to the album. It’s only recently that I went back and listened to the whole thing and realized it’s actually a cool album. It captures the five of us in our prime working together, firing on all cylinders to make an interesting and cohesive album.

TL: There is nothing to finalize. The tracks you listed are what we did. They are outtakes, demos, aborted attempts, early drafts, etc.

PPS: Personally, it’s quite sad that the original lineup of Rooney is no longer in the band. The three albums (Rooney, Calling the World, and Eureka) were truly exceptional pieces of work! Is there anything musically from Rooney (I’d expect mostly unreleased material or maybe reissues), or from you personally, that fans can look forward to in the future?
I know there was a vinyl reissue of the debut album in 2023 by Real Gone Music.

NB: I’m not sure what will happen with the Rooney music moving forward. In 2012 or 2013, we all disbanded, and we agreed to terms that enabled Robert (Schwartzman) to take over unilaterally, essentially turning Rooney from a band to a solo project. I’m still in touch with Taylor (Locke), Louis (Stephens), and Matt (Winter). I haven’t spoken to Robert in years. I love the music and adventures we all made and would never change it for the world. It was a special time in my life, and I’m overjoyed that people still find pleasure listening to the music the five of us made together.

TL: I had no involvement in that reissue. From me personally, there are some cool things on the shelf that could eventually see daylight. My EP, The Bitter End was meant to be the first of a series of EPs. Since I started working with Train (and became a Dad), I am less inclined to put myself out there as an independent artist. I have no infrastructure for promoting myself, nor do a I have a fanbase of any sustainable volume. If I was suddenly motivated to do so, there are a handful of songs that I stand by as the best I’ve done, (along the same stylistic lines as The Bitter End). Some day I will unleash the beast.

NB: I now work as an emergency room nurse, specializing in pediatric emergency medicine, and as an actor on a new TV series for HBO that launches next week (The Pitt). I also make music with actor, comedian, and WTF-podcast host Marc Maron and have my own family in LA. Thanks for reaching out and thanks to all the fans who have continued interest in our work!

PPS: Thank you, Ned and Taylor, for taking the time to discuss such a special chapter of the band!

Other songs from these sessions

These songs were created as demos, with comments from Taylor and Ned included in brackets.

Ain’t Gonna Cut It (band home demo, written with Butch Walker, it was eventually used by a Japanese group - abandoned by Rooney)
Don’t Come Around Again (later released on "Calling the World", band home demo before it was redone with John, we tended to play it live a lot)
She’s A Fool (band demo with Keith Forsey)
She’s Got Everything (eventually recorded on the Howard benson sessions, there was a home demo also; an outside song that came to us, we played it for one summer)
Walk in the Room (home demo - a cover song by The Searchers)
Won't Work Later (band home demo - abandoned)
What Makes You So Special? (band home demo - abandoned)
You Know Better (band home demo - abandoned)

Music recommendations for Rooney Fans

If you're longing for new Rooney music, I highly recommend exploring the work of Taylor Locke and Ned Brower. Some of their releases are still available on CD or vinyl (check Discogs.com), and most can be streamed on Spotify, Apple Music, or Amazon Music: